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April 1st, aka April Fools, I posted and/or commented about starting SaidIt2.com with Larry. We'd been talking about it. And it seems like something worth trying. We've been taking our sweet time.
If you have ideas for it, share them under /s/SaidIt2, an open-discussion sub about organizing all things "SaidIt2" - from the TrustedTeam self-policing community idea, policy improvement ideas, new sub curation ideas, feature wish lists, policy wish lists, other wish lists, community ideas, and constructive notes on all things.
Ideally it would be great if x0x7 and d3rr were able to help with back-end stuff, even if all they do is nothing until emergencies occur.
It's critically important to be clear that SaidIt2 should not be any kind of competition with SubMatrix (including GoatMatrix), but rather a collaboration. It's way beyond me to know how to interconnect them besides cross-promotion, but maybe it can be done.
So why bother? A while ago X0X7 wrote a great paragraph (I wish I could link it) about the problems with decentralization. It rocked my world. Those concepts still do. My very first sub on SaidIt was /s/DecentralizeAllThings, and despite the XO paradigm shift, IMO, we still need decentralization in some things. All eggs in one basket is a recipe for scrambled disaster, sooner or later.
The whole point, as I see it (as I have the domains and I will host it, as Larry will build it), is to have our community help, not be dependent on daddy government or daddy magnora or Jewson Bikeswell, or whatever. No egos, no dictators, no demagogues - just the earned TrustedTeam™ and the community at large to decide what is what, based on the founding documents (to be developed and determined). It's another social media experiment, perhaps useful as a backup, maybe even enough to grow into a community, or maybe it will languish with little to no use. If we don't try, we'll never know. And the parasites that be are trying to censor and shut down every avenue of communications they don't control.
In addition to the founding documents (with our mission, goals, guidelines, rules, etc.), we'd need to develop a roadmap, along with pragmatic benchmarks and realistic desired outcomes.
Like it or not, and with veto power, I believe there is more than enough negativity out there online - so, following X0X7's lead, rather than be like the old SaidIt, the new SaidIt2 will focus on civility, respect, intelligent, insightful discourse and freedom of expression (not noise).
One thing is for sure - I'm not doing this alone, and can't/won't do it without you, sooner or later.
Last thing - I won't leave or abandon SubMatrix for this.
It won't be a replacement for me.
It's another backup, communications alternative, community experiment, and learning experience.
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You guys should focus down on doing a feasibility test ahead of putting too much effort into planning. I've attempted to run that code in 2018, and the technical drift made the code almost un-runnable in 2018. It was already outdated to the point of being dead code. A lot would have needed to be modified. You can imagine what the drift is in 2026.
Otherwise you might put a lot of energy into planning something that can't happen. But if that's wrong, then you get the benefit of planning when you know it's something you are going to do.
Did you try it on Ubuntu 18.x or 14 LTS?
There's a Saidit docker image, luckily, and I'm tackling deploying it right now. It isn't immediate but looks pretty doable. I replaced the outdated dependency images with up to date ones and then it got to running the Reddit install script. It was compiling a bunch of stuff, looked like good progress until eventually giving
gpg: no valid OpenPGP data found.. I haven't troubleshooted this yet but I'm making progress.There's also the lemmy instances. Yes, I'm aware that's where the redditor of redditors go because reddit isn't reddit enough, but these can be used as well. They're about as decentralized, yet still reddit like that you can get I think.
I was just going to bring up Lemmy, partly because the last I checked, Lemmy uses ActivityPub to connect to other Lemmy instances, and the rest of the fediverse. Which would seem to fulfill at least some of what he wants.
Years ago, with Weegs, I got an instance of Lemmy working on my home server, but never set up the domain. Also years ago d3rr was setting up Lemmy in Docker on my VPS, but I don't know if he finished tweaking it. The goal was to have 2 of them, one for "free speech" to filter for the other "elevated discourse".
More than half of the Fediverse is woke and will ban you for associating with anyone not woke (as if that's a punishment). I think a "Fringe Deplorables" counter-community would be good to contrast that. It wouldn't even have to be non-woke or pro-right, just no-censorship.
Kind of beside my point, though I was possibly vague. The Fediverse is open source and decentralized. That it is inhabited by tyrannical midwits is a different issue to its being built on the basis you seem to want. It is an issue, no argument about that, but being open and decentralized, "route around the idiots" seems like it would be built in.
I guess this circles back to x0x7's point - the entire Internet is already decentralized.
Regardless, I've been willing to host different platforms for years (Cassandra Team platforms and projects) with some help from those technically able. Including Lemmy instances. Realistically even with great promotional effort I wouldn't expect huge success, but at the very least as tools with potential they may sit idle for ages until needed.
Since you brought up what I said about decentralization a while ago, I think it was something like this:
The internet is already decentralized. You take a lot of decentralized parts and turn it into a virtual centralized singular thing.. the internet. Then it gets broken into a lot of independent things called websites. So the web in general is already the decentralized model.
To make a "decentralized" website you need to make a lot of individual servers behave and interact in predictable and expected ways. So you need a centralized software repository. So you are taking a lot of independent servers and making them behave in lockstep, which makes them less independent. This is basically what lemmy is. It's technically using a lot of servers. But it's effectively a single userbase, not unlike reddit. They made something that could be more genuinely decentralized and made something that is functionally equivalent to reddit.
So my point about decentralization is it's not as cleanly a value as some people turn it into. The world is built on layers of decentralization, re-centralization, decentralization, re-centralization. By making something "decentralized" you aren't really making the world any less or more decentralized than it already is.
The web in general, with independent and sometimes overlapping userbases, is basically the ideal, if we could choose to use it. We already have roughly the model we want. But people feel the need to re-invent decentralization that already exists. To make better use of that layer of decentralization basically comes down to trying to pull more people off of facebook, instagram, youtube. And that just means build more cool stuff.
Then whether that alternative you are creating to make the world more decentralized uses a decentralized architecture or not is just a technical decision, rather than a meaningful value. Either way, you are going to try to get the thing to behave like the thing you want to make. In which case a centralized technical architecture might get you there faster or easier, or maybe the other option does. Either way, do whatever gets you the thing you want to create faster so you can compete with the giants.
Other than that, decentralized is just a buzzword. You can sell the buzzword as a value, which can be useful for marketing to people who have been sold on that being a value. But to the extent it can be one, whatever you create is already participating in that value by virtue of being a website. And you are fighting user centralization onto major products regardless, which is the meaningful decentralization.
My view is that it's fine to make other social media websites, though my current Saidit2 is Goatmatrix, and some of the unusual subs on Reddit, as I don't have much time for other forms of social media. I have Facebook, Twitter/X, Instagram, BlueSky, and LinkedIn accounts that I visit perhaps once a week if I'm lucky. I suppose it helps most if more prople join the communities, because as we know, only 10% of them will tend to be very active, and the rest of us will do our best to make time for the discussions.
I'm also happy to help make a Saidit2 at Reddit, where it can be run in the same way as goatmatrix is run, with the exception of Reddit admins and bots bothering members of the group if they do anything naughty. The two other Reddit Saidit subs are dead as doornails. I've developed Reddit subs that had minimal rules and didn't ban anyone and those are currently doing OK. Anyone with a Reddit site-wide ban can potentially rejoin with new usernames and engage especially in /r/Saidit2, but again, my actual Saidit2 is goatmatrix.
Didn't even know there were SaidIt community subs on Reddit (besides the one folks would go to with bugs or to say SaidIt was down).
LOL, I guess you created /r/SaidIt2 ?
No, I've not created /s/saidit2.
There are /r/Saidit and /r/Saiditnet, both magnora7's subs, inactive for 8 months and the last post is by him, explaining, "Why saidit.net [and saidit, and /r/saidit] are ending after 8 years"
D3rr developed /r/RedditAlternatives, but abandoned his username and his subs 3 years ago, after what appears to have been a 2-year battle with the group that eventually took over. I recall that a group of other users actively tried to take over this sub, and won, converting his extensive list - with numerous right-wing Reddit Alternatives - to a list that has gradually lost some of those alternatives (for various reasons), with many other alternatives: https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1anols3/social_websites_with_nested_comments_v7/ The version history is the bottom, while many of the right wing sites on D3rr's original list are missing from the first version of that new list in 2023, when D3rr left. In 2023, the new mods also removed misinformation-spreading social media. There was also the concern among the same people 5 years ago that, "Every alternative site so far has LESS 'free speech' than reddit does" (https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/oi4mwe/every_alternative_site_so_far_has_less_free/) I found this to be true at Saidit periodically. Reddit's mods for the major subs are of course corrupted by special interest groups who actively remove and mute users who disagree with Israel, or Russia, or whatever, though there are other subs that allow more free speech. r/RedditAlternatives has been relatively dead for over a year.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SaidIt2/ exists now.
I won't do anything for it until it's needed.
I have no desire to battle Redditards ever.
https://Projex.Wiki/wiki/Reddit_alternatives
Anyone can join Projex.Wiki (let me know) and update it.
I am all about malinformation that is inconvenient to authorities, corporations, governments, NGOs, etc. but I won't promote that.
Freedom of speech has become a useless buzzword.
"Freedom Of Communication", "Freedom Of Expression", and Voluntaryism are critical above all else. "Freedom of noise" is not necessary, and can evidently damage online communities.
Would be great if you could setup Saidit but the docker container has a missing component called cassandra. There is a fork by CrystalVulpine and maybe that yields more luck. Alternatively it could be setup in a VM. There's a project called Bedrock Linux that can turn your distro into a hybrid of multiple distros, possibly that still supports Ubuntu 20.04 or otherwise one can just install Ubuntu 20.04 proper on a VPS. Could you try some of these options? I can try it myself but I'm slow and not really good at troubleshooting this shit. The complaint about the alternatives having less free speech is shared by Jason and me, I think we're on the same page regarding policy.
I think I would be very bad at it, for several reasons. For me, goatmatrix/matrix already has so much going for it and is my version of Saidit2. I think x0x7 has been incredibly generous, while also diplomatic regarding the free speech we enjoy here, and that this website merely needs more users. I've thought of inviting them from Reddit, but Reddit has alternative subs for those who are banned from the main subs. So I continue to think of what can be offered as an alternative for users that we invite here. One option is that it is easy to upload one's content here in a way that would be limited at Reddit. I'm not sure how much Redditors know that their entire histories are visible to any moderator on Reddit, whereas, they can hide those comment and post histories from anyone who is not a moderator. That kind of privacy is important to those who criticise Israel, for example, because mods in the main subs will look through histories and ban and mute users without a good reason. Anyhow, more to consider on the reasons to invite people from other websites to goatmatrix. A Reddit sub called Saidit2 could potentially draw the attention of former Saiditors, who could be recruited from there to goatmatrix.
As I reflect on this, I recall that M7 and D3 had other plans for Saidit, but received instead a lot of Reddit users who were upset that Reddit closed hate-related subs. D3 admitted that this move by Reddit made Saidit grow significantly. And M7 admitted that Saidit was supposed to be for non-extreme groups (and planned to give it a different name I now cannot remember), but Saidit was often overwhelmed instead with extremism and misinformation, which is why M7 eventually shut it down (though he's still paying to keep the domain name).
I don't think Reddit is a good place to recruit people.
And I think x0x7 has specific ideas rather than just taking in random folks.
To serve x0x7's goals you'd do better to hit project-oriented communities, maker's groups, hobbyists, geeks, coders, builders, creators, journalists, researchers, scientists, etc. - or focus on only those subs on Reddit if you must.
https://www.Reddit.com/r/SaidIt2/ is basically promoting SubMatrix.net.
Before it was "SaidIt" it was AntiExtremes.com. d3rr still has 4AEM.com.
SaidIt2 doesn't need extremism or negativity (death, racism, sexism, violence, etc.). We don't need to shelter trolls who can harass from under other bridges.
Some might suggest that voluntaryism is extreme, but I'd say that anything other than voluntary interactions are coercion, threats, and violence from the "legitimated" government mafias.
SaidIt2 needs to focus on raising awareness, action, autonomy, collaboration, creation, projects, resilience, alternatives, and solutions.
OK - cool - and I hope Saidit2 can direct people to goatmatrix. I have no idea why there is a submatrix.net and am rather sad that this place can be so damn confusing. Submatrix seems to have the same stuff as goatmatrix, but why not stick with goatmatrix, and send people here? At submatrix.net I am expected to login again. I don't want to. I've got enough to do. I recommend that users are encouraged to visit goatmatrix, unless everyone here wants to abandon goatmatrix and go instead to submatrix.
Better than SaidIt2 bringing to GoatMatrix, or vice versa, would be a bunch of friendly sites in a web ring. Ideally they'd be different enough to have various interests, goals, character, features, and management, but have overlapping interests - like a Venn diagram of recommendations. Cassandra's Matrix to expose Victoria's Secret.
As far as I understand it... SubMatrix.net is the new parent (like Alphabet and Meta) over x0x7's projects. GoatMatrix.net is a community, group, or "party", as is WEFreedom.SubMatrix.net (disappointed my local folks are addicted to Facebook), and maybe one day LeverMind.SubMatrix.net or Santa.SubMatrix.net. These parties can be managed to include or exclude topics/subs and users that may potentially show up in all the party feeds. Hopefully there will be many more parties with different interests. Perhaps parties named stuff like these: AchievingAutonomy.SubMatrix.net, DIYProjects.SubMatrix.net, FilmmakerForum.SubMatrix.net, VoluntaristAction.SubMatrix.net, WindsorVibes.SubMatrix.net, WoodworkingWorkshop.SubMatrix.net, etc. - as party communities of related interests rather than just singular topic/sub feeds.
Why go to all this trouble? If folks post content to /s/cameras about cameras, and to /s/lighting about lighting, then the FilmmakerForum can include those subs in their party, along with /s/actors, /s/editing, /s/postproduction, /s/promotion, etc. - and these topics/subs, if applicable, can show up in other community parties like AnimationForum, ArtsForum, EntertainmentForum, etc.
I've not had that problem.
Reddit in its entirety is unviable now. Subreddits get censored en masse so it's only a matter of time for any sub that hosts dissenting voices to get banned. Also, I have to rotate through accounts, most of them get banned very quickly after registering. I've been trying for a while now without luck to simply have access to a functional account.
M7 didn't shut Saidit down. He lost control over it. It was doomed when D3 stepped away as he was really needed to keep the site functional and be responsive to attacks. M7 let the domain name expire and it's owned by someone else now.
It was doomed when M7 thought he was above the rest of us.
Is CrystalVulpine the crystal fox, aka Vulptex from SaidIt? Have they been to SubMatrix?
The incomplete policy outline is started here (open to revisions): https://Projex.Wiki/wiki/LeverMind/Organization
Yeah, same person, and no, not to my knowledge. He's on Session but I lost touch with him. The two best channels to him, HKP and Musky, are now missing and deceased. Maybe Zom knows how to contact him. He quit Saidit because of the clownflare, not the content, so he might be interested in joining here.
All of that makes sense. As it did back when (I think before you made the "save" option).
Perhaps my fascination with decentralization is the dream of anti-hierarchy, like voluntaryism. Trees and animals in a forest don't suffer politics besides the fundamental food chain. Trees can grow alone in a field or on an island, or together with different species in a forest or many forests across continents. Humans have evolved to depend on levers of control in the Vatican, London, Washington, and Brussels - so much so that we're all shackled on this prison planet by the parasite mafias that be, convenience, habit, and our own choices.
Decentralization is a nice buzzword, but really the goal is FOEPATCHISM.
If the technocracy was nice and benevolent there'd be nothing to complain about.
https://Projex.Wiki/wiki/FOEPATCHISM
Ok, I feel like it's well known already, but here's my wishlist for Saidit2:
old reddit interface
possibly a fork of old reddit, but not necessarily (notabug wasn't a fork at all, just interface was lifted)
votable tags! (possibly top 100k Wikipedia entries by yearly views, but that's debatable)
separate tags/topics from communities - tags are what the link is about, community is what you curate/moderate
offtopic comment section - one can vote for comment to be moved to offtopic section (a measure against Edward-like flooders)
UPD 6) mod elections - this is a huge topic to debate, as one would need a digital residency analogue for that, I mean for example to count how much time was spent on participating in community to prevent bots/random people from voting
Seems like we're pretty much on the same page.
1 & 2 SaidIt code forked from the old open-source Reddit code, until they stopped openly sharing it c.2013. If there's another interface I don't know it.
3 Yes! Community curated categories to organize and classify - rather than randos creating rando subs with repetition, poor spelling, etc. Better for searching, researching, etc.
4 I also prefer topic and community distinction too. (There were a few other uses for "subs" too.) I don't know how this might be coded. I can help with organizing, user experience, and design - and I have ideas about FOEPATCHISM governance/moderation (much already started to be outlined: https://Projex.Wiki/wiki/LeverMind/Organization ).
5 Offtopic sounds good. Also save, flag, note, and other helpful tools for the user and/or community and/or site might be nice - especially with ways to organize them. I can dream.
6 Before mod elections or anything like that, we'll simply start with the TrustedTeam of folks who have earned our respect over the years here, on SaidIt, etc. They will help refine the founding documents that will cement the course to come and will always be the touchstone whenever conflicts arise. Infiltrators and subversion can't rewrite those fundamental principles without a time machine. The TrustedTeam may determine how and if/when they need new members or mod elections or whatever - and the wider community would be openly free to petition them for changes (or keeping things the same) that align with the founding charter.
7 I don't have strong feelings one way or another about down-votes. I liked that SaidIt was positive. I dislike bonus points. I'd love to try the 5x5 MetaVote™ grid deeper qualitative voting ( https://Projex.Wiki/wiki/MetaVote™ ) but that's coding beyond me. That 5x5 grid (could also fold out to more) could be a quick and easy way to categorize things too.
Everyone is busy these days, so in case @LarrySwinger misses this post, he's been pinged.
It feels redundant to talk about starting a new alt community when you already have everything you want here with the people you like talking to. A bit patronising too, to discuss this on a very small, newish alt community site.
For what it's worth, I don't mind. I'm pro-projects.
Still seems ill-mannered :-/
I apologize if I've offended anyone, either by not wording it as tactfully as perhaps I could have, or for the very contemplation of alternatives.
As I stated in the OP, it's not a replacement, I'm not abandoning SubMatrix, and we need backups.
I won't argue that. Folks can feel how they feel.
It's not even up and running so far as I know.
The bigger issue is that we need more freedom of expression and different community experiments. The dire censorship getting worse in Canada won't stay here. We need options, before it's too late.
I don't see how it's patronizing, rather it seems to me more thought provoking with hopes to generate new ideas that might even one day be realized.
Ideally someone might even be able to vibe-code some way to connect different platforms like SaidIt, HumHub, and SubMatrix. Like a https://projex.wiki/wiki/Fringe_Deplorables_Web_Ring .
Why vibecode when ActivityPub exists?
OAuth and ActivityPub are centralized monopolies. Maybe it's the necessary tool. Maybe something else is better. Perhaps there's a new way to do things. I know a little about things, but I definitely don't know enough to know what I'm talking about let alone build anything.
Also, I was half-joking about vibe-coding.
I don't know OAuth, but ActivityPub is open source, is it not? Which, if you can fork something without the "owner" saying no, strikes me as neither centralized nor monopolistic. But possibly I am mistaken and it's proprietary.
I could be way wrong, and often am with tech. Maybe I'm just muddying things. I'm not a tech guru. But I know there are major problems with the bifurcation of the Federation into woke and rejected groups. That's not free and open.
I wouldn't call those major problems - at the worst case you just need to create two accounts for using two bifurcated groups.
They sounded great when I learned of them. I can't recall if it was d3rr or x0x7 who explained how they're a kind of centralization trap. Maybe it's not all that bad.
Perfect security is impossible to promise.
But we shouldn't make it easy for ZZZthemZZZ if we can help it.